This is the raw transcript from 4/28   I'll tidy it soon.

 

 

What does coercion mean？

高壓政治

the use, forcing someone to do something

that's the key point, it's not a free will choice

 

what's your initial reaction to the passage, or your feeling about it?

contradiction

can you see more

at first you have to be objective, but then you need to be subjective.  

when you're outside, you feel there's no freedome, but when you're inside, you feel you have freedom

inside or outside what?

let me think… yourself, and the society.  the relatioship between it.  when you're insociety, you're inside, when your out of society, you're outside.

she's saying, it's like when you're outside, you can see clearly how it works, when you're inside, you're a part of the system, you're lulled into a sense of it being okay.

I think the bit about profit is true if they're talking about strangers, he says there's NOTHING you can do, but obvioulsy you love your kids your family, it' snot about gaining someting.  I don't agree with the statement, you cannot act like a brother.  You can, it's just that, you have to look out for yourself as well

that's the point for me.  in taiwan I have almost never to calculate, but in the US, I have to calculate, even with my own family

um, sure in the UK too

you calculate…?

you have to protect yourself from other people to somedegree.

you feel hurt

I don't mean emotionally, I mean financially

 

 

how do you motivate gvt officials to do service towards the country

 

 

 

do you think the individuals who find themselves in power know that they're harvesting more power to themselves, under the illusion that everyon has a choice, when they know that under the social conventions what they say is pretty much law?

do you think they know they're weilding power?  accruing power?  using power?   abusing power?  do they know they have power?

 

when there's a group of studens working on a problem, how does it work out, power-wise?

there's always someone who tries to delegate, take initiative, and there's the people who try to get out of work.  and the person who will abide by whoever takes power just to get the job done, as long as the leader is respectable

respectabel or respectful?

both!  if they delegate all the tasks to everyone esle and just sip coffee, that person's going to be like, no, I'm not following that

that was american college anyways

taiwan colleges then?

I thought it would be different, but it's the same

people are the same 

what kind of people are there in this kind of group

vision people

let's get this shit done poeple-task oriented people

free riders

escapists

communicators

the people who watch you and tell you the mistakes

oh yeah, the critics!

almost like personality types out of an enneagram

so what are you?

I'm theorganiser or the worker bee, depending on who else is there.

what are your

reformer

what's that

you see things ahead, but you don't have patience, so you generate things inside, so you can't wait for people to catch up, so your anger puts people off

you're the critic

actually that's a challenger

oh, that's a category of the enneagram!

you can use reverse psychology sometimes.

the downside is they'll think she doesn't know what she's doing

what're you

consultant, they'll ask me, but I won't say anything until they ask

I'm the loyalist

you'll get shit done

as long as the person's competent

you wont' get on their team if you don't trust them

I"m the peacemaker

really!

I fall under communicator, make sure people gets along

we're all different

it's a givt being the communicator, I walways piss people off

 

so we havent' anwered this, do peoplknow they're in power

do you not know, or not want to say?

don't necessarily know, at that level, when they're not trying to have a central gvt, but having social norms being basically law

I think they don't know

like are they as perceptive as Shevek.  do they make their choices and give everyone else a false choice of freedome

I think they're fighting him out of ignorance and a sense of self respect

or they're drawing a veil over their power

is there more choices than, they're doing it deliberately, or they don't know

or maybe they have an inkling, and don't really want to confront themselves

when you're standing at the top, you feel cold.  you're lonely to have this super power, 

nobody understands you

so it's bound up with your self

so that's really human, I feel like the biggest obstacle to changing society is not wanting to see yourself as a bad person, and therefor not be wrong

there's a japanese manga called deathnote, hwere you have a right to kill the people, 

there's a magic notebook, if you write their name in it, they will soon die.  first they only did it to bad people , so then it gets bad and he dies in the end

so now we're at 'power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely'

but he tried so hard to get to that point and when you're at that point you don't want it anymore.  

yeah

or you reached the top, you have the poiwer, so you can't go further, so you feel empty

 

 

there's a truism that revolutionaries only repeat what they have destroyed.  theh assumption in this book is that they dismantled power

I think on earth this is not possible, because if you tried to create this society you'd get invaded by…america or something

I think that's why in the book they were on the moon

I think when poeple try to criticize, they often don't have a solution, they just are in opposition.  so they are oppose this institution, but they'll still get taken over in the end, so literally moving of Urras was the only solution,

the hot societies take over the cold societies

buddhism is cold~

oh yeah

is it though?

in cold societies people are just living.  art is developed by rich and develop soceities.  so they don't have art

in the cold societies, art is part of ritual.  

so art as we talk about is actually a hot society thing

 

so, I'm annoyed, because I'm brought up in cold society, my family is cold, but we've got beaten by hot, so I've become hot, but now everyone's saying find yourself, be yourself, blah blah blah

I think it's about communication

no, it/s not my family

we're not talking psychology here

I don't get it then, what's the problem

well, jsut being is cold

hwy I thought buddhim is

on an individual level

yes

but you'r still an individual, you're not living in the past, there's not a conflict.  you're educated, you have the information from everywhere, at least, you accept the thinking of the society there, even though you're deply influenced, 

meditating and being a monk, doing that kind of stuff is a method to help you become a buddha, but actually it doesn't conflict with the, if you are an individual or not. 

 because we live now so individual is a concept

so I don't think being an individual and buddha has absolute relations

what I wanted to say was, as young person, I'm told to be calm, so I can when I was young, but facing the hot side I feel defeated and innocent.  so I feel like in history, the hot side will take over the cold side and take them as slaves

that's exactly what's happened in history

so why are they telling us to be cold.  then they can take advantage!  You're going to, at the end you want to be cold, but in order to be in this world, you ahve to be hot

ding ding ding!

can you clarify who is 'they'?  taiwan as a whole, people in school

not only taiwanese people.  a lot of foreigners are like, find yourself, practice yoga, meditation.

but in americal, they have to slow down themselves, they ahve quick tempo and intense work, and attitude.  they have social reason

in taiwan we're more slow

I feel like there's a mixing going on.  someitmes we're talking about society, sometimes abou individual.s  at society level you have to be hot, you have to protect yourself and your society.  but at an individual level, you want to be haoppy, and that's where buddhist and daoist practice come in.   so at the level of society, the requirements are different.  you need to provide for everyone  if you are happy inyourself with cold practice, that works, but doesn't work with happiness in future. 

 

[as a social species we can't just act individually]

 

a book called capital in the 21st century, and  economists are saying it's a key work of this century.  he's looking at why people arent able to get a good life by just going and getting a job, and what's changed, what's causing it.   he brings it down to an equation.  rate of growth of economy, and rate of growth of capital returns, if cap returns rate is greater, then you get lots of rich people and lots of poor people.   so since the world wars  

 

 

 

 

Way, means natural rule, 

or being in harmony with the Dao

everyone has their nature no one can can change it

the fundamental essence of the universe, if you can talk about it it's not the real thing

it's about knowing or being the dao

it's not easy to do, is a key points I took away from it

it's like maslov's hierarchy of needs, the top, you'll see a clearer picture of what's required, there's no need for fear or greed

I read awhile ago, maybe it's different, I though he's trying to say the concept only arises when you … the fundamental essence.  if you've alwasy been patient, you might not be aware, because you're naturally patient.  so the concept doesn't even exist in your mind.   so the concrpt only comes when you no longer have the thing

it's true of how language in soeity works, you talk only about what you don't really have

if you don't know that it's hyour nature, so how can you know that.  if you dn't experience it, you don't encounter it, so if you dn't realise that then you don't know, unless people tell you about it.  so you can't grow, and you're

I think that a perfect understanding of the way would be  the third one kan shan you shi shan

maybe epople confuse the third one for the first one.

 

but see, justice, in chinese is more like 'yi', which is like, knowing what is the right thing to do

tha's more like morals

but also like duty, you have a duty

is moral a duty in western terms

rites is more like ethics

but that's 'li'

the minister of the … dynasty and also confucious beleives you can use rites to run a country

so then justice should be below the rites

that's what confucious beleived

yes, he thought it came last,  

the rites are how you run a moral country

but I was thinking the benevolence and rites are the things that push you to do so, and justice restricts you.

so justice is about negative freedom and rites are positive freedom?

yea

that's an interesting thought

but rites were just ritual

but that was the point, if the form is correct, the intention didn't matter

and laozi is saying form is the most empty thing you can do

[SJ 'intention doesn't matter' is the same as rites?}

many people don't think, if you do soemthing to hurt them, it's not about, is there any possibility to use the outside way to examine the same thing?

I give and you recieve, and they don't match so there's a misunderstanding.  you want to say something about it, but what I perceive is another thing, so there's another misunderstanding.  so there's no right or wrong, there' s just misunderstanding

no one meant to do that

but even if you don't mean it, the harm is there

but maybe someone doesn't beleive there is harm, so why should they say sorry.

basically its about power,  if the people who beleive there's no harm, if they're in power or not is whehter they ahave to say sorry or not

well, is the victim always right.

If someone says there's harm, is there definitely harm.

you know, on tumblr, this is almost all they argue about. 

can you say that justice is about deciding where there's harm?

I agree.   people need justice, to separate who's right, you are me.  everyone's not happy, so you need someone to come out and decide who's right or wront

in the US they've outsourced all socieal conflict to judges

I would say sorry to someone I hurt, but I would let them know I didn't mean it.  we all got hurt, because you blamed me, so we're all hurting.

yuan yuan bao he shi liao

can you say the hurt is of equal magnitude?

but comparing can lead to oppresion olympics

there was a point earlier about confucius said the form matters more than the intention, because i think the opposite.  I think the intenion is everytying, the form doesn't matter.  I think the intenion is more important than the acrtion always

sometimes you do things without intention

no, that means your intention was different to your action, so yeah, it was a mistake because your intention was someting else

 

 

 

 

resource based economy 

 

 

I found this discussion to be refreshing, it's a change of pace to what I'm used to.  I thin kthis short story was a very interesting view on an alternative view on life, it'd be very interesting if we could shortly live on Annares but I don't think i's posible in the slightest that we could do it here, as we're fighting for the same rescources.  from this discussion I've gathered that power structures arise in any group more than one person, so at any level where power can be dispersed it will find a way to be uneven in some way.  

as for coercion I think that power as coercion, that depends wholly on the individuals, if they are self aware with what they are doing coercion can perhaps be mitigated, but without self-awareness, it's also an inevitable structure that comes into play, or force that comes into play.

that's why I'm always saying that we have to grow the fuck up as a planet

it makes people having to think so much, to make sure everything is fair, to divide things equally, it's hard to have the right attitude all the time 

yeah. equality vs equity

one says, we'll give everyon the same thing, the other one says, we'll help everyone have equal standing

 

so there are three types of coercion, economic calculation, social convention and institutional power

these are too big, I don't relate to them I don't feel I live in one of them.  but, coming back to it, we're talking about power, if there's only these three choices, I'd prefer to live in soical conventional soceity.   there's no soceity that meets everyone needs.   social conventions you have to agree to the way it is.  it's hard to accomodate everyon's needs, so it's better to live in a small group, so it's more likely to meet everyone's preferences/needs. I'll feel safe in this group.  but to integrate or participate with ohters, I can go out, bu tif I don't feel safe, I can come back and follow conventions my group creates.  so this I realised is how ancient china works.  we have family like small group with famiily rulse/ confensions.  then you have soiceit, if you don't feel safe there then we can come back to our home.

but I would like to change it a little bit, because I can't choose my family, but I don't like their conventions, so I would like to change my family to the group of people i choose, but I don't know

a lot of people have this idea

 

power is just everywhere, and it always happens, maybe it comes with the instincts also.  it's a kind of manage, it's a kind of instinct of humans, also of animals.   control desire, or management, i'm not sure how to say it.

 

I think you guys have all talked about power enough, so that's pretty good, so I don't have anything to say about that, I just have a couple of points.  one was earlier, we talked about on anarres it's social convention rather than a legal structure, and that was presented as a contrast to a legal system.  but a legal system is also a social convention.  and in some ways, I think we, in a way concluded this through the discussion, or at least in my minde, that laying out the rules explicitly is beneficial, but underneath it all is still social convention.  

and as for the few weeks, it's been really cool to talk to people who enjoy talking about this stuff.  I think I am probably not as opposted to the systems and society we have today as maybe some other people, from a purely philosophical point of vew, in my view the world is the best it's ever been.  the fact that info can travel around the world this quickly, the social awareness, that we all think slavery is bad homsexuality is okay, that even with capitalism, it's bettern than ever.  people have a view that simpler earlier was better.  but the thing is we have the resources and time to plan the kind of world we want to make, and so for that reason alone I feel positive about the future.   

but I do think there's some things that'll happen in the next 100 years, especially from a atech point of view that could make that happen, like decentralising, produce, web, 3d printing, these are all fringe things, but 

[social media gvt]

if everyone had all these discussions, how do you aggregate that information

well that's what the system architects would have to solve

the thing about the money and the farmer, you don't know where the money is going to

yes, transparency in cost

as we add information points, the technology will develop and the 

 

technology brings about transparency, and the transparency bridges economic equality.  what's missing is the level of education of the people  but if you want everyone's voice to be heard, but if they're thinking from a very limited perspetive, does everyone get equal say

so tere's a book called Daemon, before he dies he programs an artificial intelligence, and it starts acting upon the world.  it hacks computers and breaks people out of prison, and turns the world into a multi-player game, so you have these glasses, and when you look through, you can see their stats above their information, their money and repsutation, so they start moving to something like anarres

it's interesting that he thinis it would move that way

but if everything is about reputation, that's where power is derived

on anarres the social reputation intersects with your reputation

on this one the daemon is the ultimate arbiter

so it's a god