This transcript is not yet tidied up.
Participants: Nicholas, Zona, Adele, Chianwen, Jane, Angela
What is a boundary? What do people generally use boundaries for?
Protection
making space for themselves
distinguishing
dividing
defining who has access to these resources
marking territory
related to ownership
what is a boundary? I think we didn't talk about what it means, what's the definition?
its a line or something that has all these purposes.
it could be visible or invisible
I feel like most of the time it's a space of some sort.
or some ideology
when I saw, definign and dividing I thought of character. boundaries define character. you wouldn't go past, a single personality would have certina boundaries and that creates a single character
can I ask one thing?
what kinds of boundaries are there? and what is everyone interested in talking about, related to coming here.
When you hear the word 'boundary', what are your emotional associations?
Why do you suppose people feel the need to turn boundaries into physical things?
separation
which is good or bad
not good
I think of healthy
laughter
these are both true
it's a positive ffeeling
restrictions
distance
strange
because to me, boundary is different than barrier.
how
boundaries can be crosses, barriers, can't, you have to use violence or something
strenght force
has to be knocekd down or something
boundaries can be ctossed, like on a basketball court
there's hockey barrier, but basketball
national boundaries
you can cross them
but you ahve to pay
and if you cross with an army, it costs even more
it's important to realise, boundaries are there for a reason, they're important, and therefore there's a price to pay
either when you don't respect your own or other peoples parties
What are proper functions for walls, fences, etc. What are the walls around you that you feel are good and right? Personally, socially, aesthetically, morally?
okay, are we talking about walls or boundaries,
both
they're not the same
theyre' not the same, they're similar
I feel differently about them
a wall is a three dimensional thing, and you can't see on the other side, it's truly an obstruction
what about a wai-st high wall? walls are more ambiguous about that
boundaries, anything can be used to create a boundary
it's the symbolic function.
walls, you can make exceptions, but I ;think of them as compltet obstructions
I want to know what are the proper functions for all levels of barrier, if you want to distinguish between kinds of function, feel free.
I think that a boundary gives you choice, to cross it, or not. you can cross it.
okay, what is it for, what is the point of it.
in a relationship, the point is that I can get along peacefully with someone else
it's about respect
ren bu fan wo, wo bu fan ren, I won't attack unless you attack me.
it's like, the engolish, good fences make good neihbors
I think, at least in Taiwanese culture, I don't think it works, because the wall is so thin.
I would think you were gooing to say tiawanese are so jipo, so gossipy.
but I don't know if it's necessary. I remember there was a couple weeks ago, with teh whole buildingwas, we were woken up in the middle of the night, because sb was beating their kid, and the kid was screaming, and we wer like, which floor, should we call the police, we don't know what's happening, becasue the wall you can't see. in the end someone reported to the polie, and we still didn't know wha thappened.
it sounded really bad though
I'm not sure if was my building or not. everyone was turning on the light, and being like should i call or not.
but it's important
if you call, nobobdy knows
I was just reading something rollo may, olove and will
people in a group will depend on someone else to take action
it takes someone to iniatiate
what do you use walls and boundaries for
imagining I have privacy
same here!
there was a hole in the wall, my mom did that
that's a surveilance state, damn!
when there's something dirty, it has to be behind doors.
I want to say someting, the difference between boundaries and walls, boundary is implied, in the begiinning it's implied, there's trust, and openness. there's trust, you belevie tha tpeple will see it and respect it. and if they don't it becomes a wall. that's the diffrence. you don't need walls. the biggest militaries and stuff like that. you don't need wals of that strenght, the thickre it is the more defensive you are, you don't trust that peopl ecan see or not violate you, os hat 's why you ahve to do that. after aa wall, it's like attacking, there's violence, there's a progression, but in the beginning, in a utopia, it's a boundariy because it's healthy, it's a choice. when it's corsseed you can be like oay, don't do this, maybe someone didin't see it, somep oeple don't realise their boundaries are not clear. but if you explain and they still corssi it, they're doing it purposely…
I thought of something interesting, if I give you a big space, okay, it's fine, but don't step on lmy land mine.
but the land mine is invisibie, you don't know wher eit is, it's even more dangerous, a boundary is more visibal
so a mine feild is a boundary
but boundaries can be invisible or blurred.
What are improper functions? What are the walls and barriers around you that you feel are wrong? Personally, socially, aesthetically, morally, politically?
This might be easier
what they're used for that they shouldn't be used for
limit you to do what you want
like immigration
I don't think that's imprpoer
preventing people from the work they need.
national borders are used all the time to control poor people moving into lucrative areas.
insecurity and security is the root of this issue. you say that when you are secure you are open and trusting when you are secure. as soon as you are not
open and trusting is not that you are secure. it's not the only reason
what
s the other reasons?
it's personality, actually. I don't feel I'm secure, if someone else is going to compete for my job, I'm not sure I can compete, if I lose, it means i'm not good enough I have to try harder.
that's actyallty myt attidute
but that's what I said, that I wouldn't put upo a wall
we have to define what security means. you appernetly stil think you will life, without this job. if something threatened you htat you cared about. secuirty is about things that you care about
confidence?
that's not quite the same thing
for me, like for translation case, who want's to take it, i will post it, and share it with my friends,
why do you do that, I don't think I should keep it private
why do you share, if you need the money?
maybe she has a greater sense of community and a higher value
sometimes ai feel my friends need the job more than I do
people sometimes corrss their own boundaries
what's the difference between that and kindness and generosity
people have a certain amount of …, if they don't know their own boundaries, they regularly deplete themselves, until they fall sick, and if it's very serious, then they get really sick, the arent' able to take care of
you're saying they're not good at taking care of themselves
to protect your resources
to use wisely a limited amount of resoucred
to conserve yourself
there's a thing called scarcity, when we as humans don't like. nobody likes scarcity, or death.
there's ways people deal with limitation and scarcity.
the gvt is choosing to prioritise citizens or not-citizens? who do you give your resources to, if I care everything outside my boundaries, I'm not caring for the people within my borders, the central part collapses.
that's the argument about the CSST, worried about opening doors to mainlanders to flood the market, and willing to take jobs at too low a payment and taiwanese will lose their job.
it relates to responsiblity, Ghandi was terrible to his family
He was a total egotist. peace and nonviolence was an effective strategy which he used to perfection, but he didn't personify it.
What are the attributes of privacy?
What is the function of privacy?
When is privacy desirable? Detrimental?
attribute is quality, characteristic
the specific qualities
if you're going to describe it, wha ti is it?
secret
the freedome to not tell people everything, or not ready to share
personal boundaries,
trusting that people respect that space
do chinese have privacy?
I don't think so
because it's not individual-oriented
that's western
because our archticture
this is so interesting, individual vs group, it's about the source of identity of a person. group-oriented society, your identity rises and falls with the group.
what's the function of privacy?
what's it for
sense of security?
add walls to information?
security to the individual, it's not securt to the person who want's to know
to sheild information from casual eyes.
it's good for the individual, the others don't necessarioly like it
but they respect it if they want others to respect it.
privacy is not letting you know the information, but you can still get to it with effort, but it adds an extra layer of protection to soemthing only you would want to know?
you' can still violate someone's privacy.
privacy is just another pboundary, it's just another wall in placy. it's just another wall tha tyou place. it's a curtain.
able to violeat
it's not your right!
to make it myseterious and build authority
authority, why?
becaue people don't know you, and can't get to you, like the egyopt kings and queens.
or celebrities for instance
so people don't know you and you can create an imiage that you want people to see
private people do this too, do this all the time.
facebook is the image!
you're hiding behind it, you put out wha tyou wan tpoeple to see, but you're hiding what actually happens.
you can choose
In the 70s, feminists said "The personal is political".
What does that mean?
do you know what that means?
feminism
if what you do on your private time affects society, What does that imply for the social function of privacy?
I want to say, teachers who are sex workers by night, the parents object to this.
so the professional clients of some people will take issue with what they the professionals will do in their personal sphere,
I'm sure if people found out…
so what does it mean?
you don't have the choice to do what to you want to do if you are a public figure?
well, you ahve a responsiblity,
your careeer is built on your leadership,
I don't know about teachers, it'sdifferent. I think it depends, if they are teaching english, as a language, what does that effect, why would that interfere with their cknowledge
there's no correleation
but, becasue they're saying the same bird with the same fealther flocks together, what kind of person you are will demonstrate what you do, of course you can say the night is the night, but morning is deffierent, but can the person do that so clearly, because of your subconsious, you don't know what you will express through tthat, especsailly6 kids imitate you from what you do,
from your behavioiur
I knw what you mean, but I don't think sexworkers, becasue I know so many of them. I know they ahve character, they choose todo this for some personal reason, and it's not realy related to their character as a teacher
who tehy are
it's case by case, we cannot generalasie
that's an interesting question, realted to a professor of psychology, saying her husband is a doctor, and he deliberately doesn't close the door or get into any private space with an idividual woman, just so that….I agree, that when you are a public figure, there are certain functions with society, when you're going to take them on, even when youdon't intend to be, you have to be extra careful about your actions, beasue they can be misconstrued
I feel like there's a lack of generosity, it's about trust
those people can't do a normal thing, because they're not normal any more
it's about the scope of repsonibility, when you're a public figure with that much responsiblity, but your actions will be scrutinised.
so you're saying because I don't have the economic ability to leave this hous, I had to accept the level of surveilance?
you always have a choice, you could have moved out, if you're in an enviornment, you can fight against reality,
I want to share a story, I'm one year old older than her. I don't go home, becasue there's no privacy at home. and my mom nagging all the time about the long hair, "every time you go home hte floor gets dirty"
it makes you really unwelcome
my sister was so angry…
Is privacy necessary for freedom?
Does it interfere with freedom? Is it neutral to freedom?
depends on what youdefine freedom as
individual freedom yes
what else freedom is there?
if you're being scrutinised for your thoughts, eventually you won't bea ble to pursue those thoughts because the group surrounds you saying that they don't need it is not representative of the whole community.
one person's freedom is another person's prison
I strongly disagree
let's take the example of intimate relationships, one person wants privacy and the other feels like, 'you're not engaging'
those peopl e should full stop break up
okay that's your opnion
I think the one person is not respecing the other person's space, they shouldn't be together.
but it's like the parent
it's about respect
when someone is like that, it's because of their own insecurilyt. the person who's worried about engagment
it's never just that simple
the privacy side can also be defence
why is breaking down sb's boundaries a good thing. people have the boundary for a reason. if the other person can't respect that, then they souldn't be in the relationshipo together. if you have to break down sb's boundaries to be with them it's abuseive. they need that boundary for some reason, you have to respect that. you can invite them to dropt the boundary, but you can't force them, the force is abusive
Is privacy only a barrier to group rlations, or is there more function to it.
can you give a concrete example?
when you go home, you need ½ hour of not talking to somebody.
my mom gets really made, you're treating this house as a hotel, but i"m not dong that, I just need some time there!
Home should be a haven, but on the contrary is not
the insistence on community is actually discruptive to community, in that example.
so privacy is relative to public? I feel, are they in opposition?
that's a really good question? are they in opposition?
I feel like in discussion, we all put privacy in opposite to the concept of sharing. so that means individaul and group, this idea between individual and group are in opposition?
if you ahve the one, then you don't have the other.
so are you comparing what the person needs to what the family needs?
so is public is so separate?
the context is separate
so how do they exist at the same time
so how does this concept privacy develop.
there's a value judgement that I'm uncomfortable with.
but I don't think she is saying that. she's talking about origin
so what is privacy originaly from
I don't know western society, in china, the private means family, and public means politics
I think this is true for the west, but it's more blurred
but the ancient chinese family ,they do have some privacy. when a couple is married, they lived in the same room until they have babies
but after that, the servant , our mom, the sisters will come and say, tell me the stories.
but there is privacy,
but only at the night, during the day you're interacting with the family.
but at night, the couple can be together
but only concubines can have sex in the daytime. also ,after the children are produced, sex should stop. it's very goal-oriented.
so actually the sex IS the family business, because the point is having children
but it's private when you ahve sex
but it's dictated privacy
also sometime people got watched having sex
also in Korea, there are a lot of postures that you're supposed to follow to have a boy.
and the elderly people will wait outside the door, to prove the virginity.
Concluding Statments?
I think I have a lot of boundaries, and I was blamed that I have too many, too heavy to think…but I think i kind of build different boundaries depending on different people, I put different boundaries for idfferent people. So that's why people think one person is so hard to understand, ebeause you have to deal with different people and they have different boundaries. And to the privacy thing, it's hard to say something, becasue I feel the conversation never ends, becasue tehre's a lot to discuss. just like exploring a little part of myslef, and it's not complete yet, so I cannot give something out. so I need some questions to answer.
I think I don't really know what my boundaries are, and sometimes makes it harder to interact with other people, beasue she said, don't know where my landmines are. usually I used to say I'm like an open book, but the following statement is…but written in invisible ink. so people use different ways to make me show upo, fire? water? but it's a good way, because I'm trusting people can feel free to step in, i'm inviting, but recently I start to feel, by not having boundaries, I'm actually putting more barries to other people they don't know where to respect me
so the hold back?
no, they tramp all over the field. they don't see the guideline, so the're like, okay! write anywhere
it's just like on the road there's a lot of rocks, but they're invisible, if you dont' see it, you'll tumble, so if you don't know your boundaires, so they don't know how to interact with you. so the basic tone is tere's something there, they're just empty in the world
I'll use my mom as an example, after I start to train the exotic animla, she got it. I didn't need to say it, I showed it, this is what I need, but respecting her first, addressing her need first. so she felt she can respect me and my needs.
becasue you are able to do so, you're higher than her.
it's not higher, it's becasue I start to see from her point of view she's lonely, she needs a hug.
I think boundaries privide a constructive framework for eigher individuals or society to work out ideas or be productive. once you start crossig , tsilly things start to come in, like emotions. so they're there to thave the productive culture, to understand what you can and can't do. it's important for individuals ot have privacy to innovate. like tesla, it's a private company. and then NJ was like, …
you guys were talking about faimly at home. you need borders to be constructive, when your mom stopped that, everytying was okay, right?
when fear is factored in, and privacy is required to keep innovating, I think that's silly. what's a good example? where fear stops people from coming in
in the tech world so many..
back to the family thing…they said, you're learning so much, an dnow you want to fly away from home. their fear is preventing you from expanding your horisons. that's people who don't understand what new tech does. they want to crush it because they don't understand it and don't want to see it.
fear of the unknown, you mean.
fear of china coming in! talk about it, don't just dismiss it.
so I think boundary has both positive and negative sides, if you use the boundary very well, then you can get a proper protection from it. but if you use it too much, then maybe it become a barrier for yourself. also Im' thinkingabout building boundaires is a kindo f instinct. if you're facing unkown, someties you can't explain it, you will defend a fence automatically. maybe it's a biological thing.
we're more than our biology though!
yeah, just hukman being. like my boyriena always says, soemtiems you dont' know why but your instinct pushes you to do it.
so in counselling, they often say boundaries is the, that all the problems that we hear about soeical issues is all about boundaires, it's about where you end and onther person begins. it reminds me of, the reason why I wanted to struess, was, people have two needs. they happen at different intensities at different times. we all need connection. we also need space and time for ourselves at well. that's what's constantly being negotiated in intimate relations and society etc. when ou talk about healthy and limiting walls, I was thinking, why do i…I am a strong advocate of boundaries, whether they are healthy or limitign. the difference is, boundaries are defensive. they're there to tell you to please respect it. I think there's an emotion behind, we feel the emotion, like china is a force blockiing freedome, it feels invasive in a way? that's a different thing. I"m an advocate of boundaries. they're telling people where the landmines are. its not just crossing other people's boundaries. if each of us can know what our other pboundaries are, and express them in an effective way to different people, whatever it takes, society would function better. the ideal utopian …. of relationshiop is like a symphony. healthy relationshipos work when you respect your own and other person's, it's a good goal to be striving for. also at the same time being compassionate to yourself and others. we are imperfect human beings, to get that formula right, it's hard to get right.
imagine that you are in a vast empty place, and you don't know where to go, then you create boundaries, then you have that comfort zone, and then ou can go out to explore, and you can go back an dbe safe, so it' sa kind of choice. so taiwan is my base, then I can go to Paraguay, and then I could create a base there, and go somewhere else. so you create different places. what she said, we have two sides, you want people to know you, and also you want to hid yorself from people, so there's a contradiction. so when we're talking about healhty boundaries, that's balance, you balance, people can know you, but you're also safe.
safe in what sense?
like, they're not going to use things against you
so it's trust again
yes
so again it depends on the situation, the people, it's never shure. the balance point is always shifting, so it's annoying.
another thing I learned form counselleing, we teach people how to relate to us, so boundaries, are writing them clearly.
when it's not clear you make it clear, but sometimes you make it too clear, you have to make it a little blurry
if it's too clear, it makes people afraid of you.
and that is inimical to relationshiop,
connection
like you step on the landmine, and bam, you're on the outside.
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