| 
  • If you are citizen of an European Union member nation, you may not use this service unless you are at least 16 years old.

  • You already know Dokkio is an AI-powered assistant to organize & manage your digital files & messages. Very soon, Dokkio will support Outlook as well as One Drive. Check it out today!

View
 

How Boundaries Work--Transcript

Page history last edited by Angela 9 years, 10 months ago

This transcript is not yet tidied up.

 

Participants: Nicholas, Zona, Adele, Chianwen, Jane, Angela

 

What is a boundary?  What do people generally use boundaries for? 

Protection

making space for themselves

distinguishing

dividing

defining who has access to these resources

marking territory

related to ownership

what is a boundary?  I think we didn't talk about what it means, what's the definition?

its a line or something that has all these purposes.

it could be visible or invisible

I feel like most of the time it's a space of some sort.

or some ideology

when I saw, definign and dividing I thought of character.  boundaries define character.  you wouldn't go past, a single personality would have certina boundaries and that creates a single character

 

 

can I ask one thing?   

what kinds of boundaries are there?  and what is everyone interested in talking about, related to coming here. 

 

When you hear the word 'boundary', what are your emotional associations?

Why do you suppose people feel the need to turn boundaries into physical things? 

 

separation

which is good or bad

not good

I think of healthy

laughter

these are both true

it's a positive ffeeling

restrictions

distance

strange

because to me, boundary is different than barrier.  

how

boundaries can be crosses, barriers, can't, you have to use violence or something

strenght force

has to be knocekd down or something

boundaries can be ctossed, like on a basketball court

there's hockey barrier, but basketball 

national boundaries

you can cross them

but you ahve to pay

and if you cross with an army, it costs even more

it's important to realise, boundaries are there for a reason, they're important, and therefore there's a price to pay

either when you don't respect your own or other peoples parties

 

 

What are proper functions for walls, fences, etc.   What are the walls around you that you feel are good and right? Personally, socially, aesthetically, morally?

okay, are we talking about walls or boundaries,

both

they're not the same

theyre' not the same, they're similar

I feel differently about them

a wall is a three dimensional thing, and you can't see on the other side, it's truly an obstruction

what about a wai-st high wall?  walls are more ambiguous about that

boundaries, anything can be used to create a boundary

it's the symbolic function.

walls, you can make exceptions, but I ;think of them as compltet obstructions

I want to know what are the proper functions for all levels of barrier, if you want to distinguish between kinds of function, feel free.

I think that a boundary gives you choice, to cross it, or not.   you can cross it.

okay, what is it for, what is the point of it.

in a relationship, the point is that I can get along peacefully with someone else

it's about respect

ren bu fan wo, wo bu fan ren, I won't attack unless you attack me.

it's like, the engolish, good fences make good neihbors

I think, at least in Taiwanese culture, I don't think it works, because the wall is so thin.

I would think you were gooing to say tiawanese are so jipo, so gossipy.  

but I don't know if it's necessary.  I remember there was a couple weeks ago, with teh whole buildingwas, we were woken up in the middle of the night, because sb was beating their kid, and the kid was screaming, and we wer like, which floor, should we call the police, we don't know what's happening, becasue the wall you can't see.  in the end someone reported to the polie, and we still didn't know wha thappened. 

it sounded really bad though

I'm not sure if was my building or not.  everyone was turning on the light, and being like should i call or not.

but it's important

if you call, nobobdy knows

I was just reading something rollo may, olove and will

people in a group will depend on someone else to take  action

it takes someone to iniatiate

what do you use walls and boundaries for

 imagining I have privacy

same here!

there was a hole in the wall, my mom did that

that's a surveilance state, damn!

when there's something dirty, it has to be behind doors.

I want to say someting, the difference between boundaries and walls, boundary is implied, in the begiinning it's implied, there's trust, and openness.  there's trust, you belevie tha tpeple will see it and respect it. and if they don't it becomes a wall.  that's the diffrence.  you don't need walls.  the biggest militaries and stuff like that.  you don't need wals of that strenght, the thickre it is the more defensive you are, you don't trust that peopl ecan see or not violate you, os hat 's why you ahve to do that.   after aa wall, it's like attacking, there's violence, there's a progression, but in the beginning, in a utopia, it's a boundariy because it's healthy, it's a choice.  when it's corsseed you can be like oay, don't do this, maybe someone didin't see it, somep oeple don't realise their boundaries are not clear.   but if you explain and they still corssi it, they're doing it purposely…

I thought of something interesting, if I give you a big space, okay, it's fine, but don't step on lmy land mine.

but the land mine is invisibie, you don't know wher eit is, it's even more dangerous,  a boundary is more visibal

so a mine feild is a boundary

but boundaries can be invisible or blurred.

 

What are improper functions?   What are the walls and barriers around you that you feel are wrong? Personally, socially, aesthetically, morally, politically?

 

This might be easier 

what they're used for that they shouldn't be used for

limit you to do what you want

like immigration

I don't think that's imprpoer

preventing people from the work they need.

national borders are used all the time to control poor people moving into lucrative areas.

 

insecurity and security is the root of this issue.  you say that when you are secure you are open and trusting when you are secure.  as soon as you are not

open and trusting is not that you are secure.  it's not the only reason

what

s the other reasons?

it's personality, actually.    I don't feel I'm secure, if someone else is going to compete for my job, I'm not sure I can compete, if I lose, it means i'm not good enough I have to try harder.

that's actyallty myt attidute

but that's what I said, that I wouldn't put upo a wall

we have to define what security means.  you appernetly stil think you will life, without this job.  if something threatened you htat you cared about.  secuirty is about things that you care about

confidence?

that's not quite the same thing

for me, like for translation case, who want's to take it, i will post it, and share it with my friends,

why do you do that, I don't think I should keep it private

why do you share, if you need the money? 

maybe she has a greater sense of community and a higher value 

sometimes ai feel my friends need the job more than I do

people sometimes corrss their own boundaries

what's the difference between that and kindness and generosity

people have a certain amount of …, if they don't know their own boundaries, they regularly deplete themselves, until they fall sick, and if it's very serious, then they get really sick, the arent' able to take care of

you're saying they're not good at taking care of themselves

to protect your resources

to use wisely a limited amount of resoucred

to conserve yourself

there's a thing called scarcity, when we as humans don't like.  nobody likes scarcity, or death.

there's ways people deal with limitation and scarcity.

 

the gvt is choosing to prioritise citizens or not-citizens?  who do you give your resources to, if I care everything outside my boundaries, I'm not caring for the people within my borders, the central part collapses.

that's the argument about the CSST, worried about opening doors to mainlanders to flood the market, and willing to take jobs at too low a payment and taiwanese will lose their job.

it relates to responsiblity, Ghandi was terrible to his family

He was a total egotist.  peace and nonviolence was an effective strategy which he used to perfection, but he didn't personify it.

 

 

What are the attributes of privacy?

What is the function of privacy?

When is privacy desirable?  Detrimental?

attribute is quality, characteristic

the specific qualities

if you're going to describe it, wha ti is it?

secret

 the freedome to not tell people everything, or not ready to share

 personal boundaries,

trusting that people respect that space

do chinese have privacy?

I don't think so

because it's not individual-oriented

that's western

because our archticture

this is so interesting, individual vs group, it's about the source of identity of a person.  group-oriented society, your identity rises and falls with the group.

 

what's the function of privacy?

what's it for

sense of security?

add walls to information?

security to the individual, it's not securt to the person who want's to know

to sheild information from casual eyes. 

it's good for the individual, the others don't necessarioly like it

but they respect it if they want others to respect it.

privacy is not letting you know the information, but you can still get to it with effort, but it adds an extra layer of protection to soemthing only you would want to know?

you' can still violate someone's privacy. 

 privacy is just another pboundary, it's just another wall in placy.  it's just another wall tha tyou place.  it's a curtain.

able to violeat

it's not your right!

to make it myseterious and build authority

authority, why?

becaue people don't know you, and can't get to you, like the egyopt kings and queens.

or celebrities for instance

so people don't know you and you can create an imiage that you want people to see

private people do this too, do this all the time.

facebook is the image!

you're hiding behind it, you put out wha tyou wan tpoeple to see, but you're hiding what actually happens.

you can choose

 

In the 70s, feminists said "The personal is political".  

What does that mean?

do you know what that means?

feminism

if what you do on your private time affects society, What does that imply for the social function of privacy?

I want to say, teachers who are sex workers by night, the parents object to this.

so the professional clients of some people will take issue with what they the professionals will do in their personal sphere,

I'm sure if people found out…

so what does it mean?

you don't have the choice to do what to you want to do if you are  a public figure?

well, you ahve a responsiblity, 

your careeer is built on your leadership,

I don't know about teachers, it'sdifferent.  I think it depends, if they are teaching english, as a language, what does that effect, why would that interfere with their cknowledge

there's no correleation

but, becasue they're saying the same bird with the same fealther flocks together, what kind of person you are will demonstrate what you do,  of course you can say the night is the night, but morning is deffierent, but can the person do that so clearly, because of your subconsious, you don't know what you will express through tthat, especsailly6 kids imitate you from what you do, 

from your behavioiur

I knw what you mean, but I don't think sexworkers, becasue I know so many of them.  I know they ahve character, they choose todo this for some personal reason, and it's not realy related to their character as a teacher

who tehy are

it's case by case, we cannot generalasie

that's an interesting question, realted to a professor of psychology, saying her husband is a doctor, and he deliberately doesn't close the door or get into any private space with an idividual woman, just  so that….I agree, that when you are a public figure, there are certain functions with society, when you're going to take them on, even when youdon't intend to be, you have to be extra careful about your actions, beasue they can be misconstrued

I feel like there's a lack of generosity, it's about trust

those people can't do a normal thing, because they're not normal any more

it's about the scope of repsonibility, when you're a public figure with that much responsiblity, but your actions will be scrutinised.

 

so you're saying because I don't have the economic ability to leave this hous, I had to accept the level of surveilance?   

you always have a choice, you could have moved out, if you're in an enviornment, you can fight against reality, 

I want to share a story, I'm one year old older than her.  I don't go home, becasue there's no privacy at home.  and my mom nagging all the time about the long hair, "every time you go home hte floor gets dirty"

it makes you really unwelcome

my sister was so angry…

 

Is privacy necessary for freedom?  

Does it interfere with freedom?  Is it neutral to freedom?

depends on what youdefine freedom as

individual freedom yes

what else freedom is there?

if you're being scrutinised for your thoughts, eventually you won't bea ble to pursue those thoughts because the group surrounds you saying that they don't need it is not representative of the whole community.

one person's freedom is another person's prison

I strongly disagree

let's take the example of intimate relationships, one person wants privacy and the other feels like, 'you're not engaging'

those peopl e should full stop break up

okay that's your opnion

I think the one person is not respecing the other person's space, they shouldn't be together.

but it's like the parent 

it's about respect

when someone is like that, it's because of their own insecurilyt.  the person who's worried about engagment

it's never just that simple

the privacy side can also be defence

why is breaking down sb's boundaries a good thing.  people have the boundary for a reason.  if the other person can't respect that, then they souldn't be in the relationshipo together.   if you have to break down sb's boundaries to be with them it's abuseive.  they need that boundary for some reason, you have to respect that. you can invite them to dropt the boundary, but you can't force them, the force is abusive

 

Is privacy only a barrier to group rlations, or is there more function to it.

can you give a concrete example?

when you go home, you need ½ hour of not talking to somebody.

my mom gets really made, you're treating this house as a hotel, but i"m not dong that, I just need some time there!

Home should be a haven, but on the contrary is not

the insistence on community is actually discruptive to community, in that example.

 

so privacy is relative  to public?   I feel, are they in opposition?

that's a really good question? are they in opposition?

I feel like in discussion, we all put privacy in opposite to the concept of sharing.  so that means individaul and group, this idea between individual and group are in opposition?

if you ahve the one, then you don't have the other.

so are you comparing what the person needs to what the family needs?

so is public is so separate?

the context is separate

so how do they exist at the same time

so how does this concept privacy develop.

there's a value judgement that I'm uncomfortable with.

but I don't think she is saying that.   she's talking about origin

so what is privacy originaly from

I don't know western society, in china, the private means family, and public means politics

I think this is true for the west, but it's more blurred

but the ancient chinese family ,they do have some privacy.   when a couple is married, they lived in the same room until they have babies

but after that, the servant , our mom, the sisters will come and say, tell me the stories. 

but there is privacy, 

but only at the night,  during the day you're interacting with the family.

but at night, the couple can be together

but only concubines can have sex in the daytime.  also ,after the children are produced, sex should stop.   it's very goal-oriented.  

so actually the sex IS the family business, because the point is having children

but it's private when you ahve sex

but it's dictated privacy

also sometime people got watched having sex

also in Korea, there are a lot of postures that you're supposed to follow to have a boy.  

and the elderly people will wait outside the door, to prove the virginity.

 

 

 

 Concluding Statments?

I think I have a lot of boundaries, and I was blamed that I have too many, too heavy to think…but I think i kind of build different boundaries depending on different people, I put different boundaries for idfferent people.  So that's why people think one person is so hard to understand, ebeause you have to deal with different people and they have different boundaries.  And to the privacy thing, it's hard to say something, becasue I feel the conversation never ends, becasue tehre's a lot to discuss.  just like exploring a little part of myslef, and it's not complete yet, so I cannot give something out.  so I need some questions to answer.

 

I think I don't really know what my boundaries are, and sometimes makes it harder to interact with other people, beasue she said, don't know where my landmines are.  usually I used to say I'm like an open book, but the following statement is…but written in invisible ink.  so people use different ways to make me show upo, fire? water?   but it's a good way, because I'm trusting people can feel free to step in, i'm inviting, but recently I start to feel, by not having boundaries, I'm actually putting more barries to other people  they don't know where to respect me

so the hold back?

no, they tramp all over the field.  they don't see the guideline, so the're like, okay! write anywhere

it's just like on the road there's a lot of rocks, but they're invisible, if you dont' see it, you'll tumble, so if you don't know your boundaires, so they don't know how to interact with you.  so the basic tone is tere's something there, they're just empty in the world

I'll use my mom as an example, after I start to train the exotic animla, she got it.  I didn't need to say it, I showed it, this is what I need, but respecting her first, addressing her need first.  so she felt she can respect me and my needs.

becasue you are able to do so, you're higher than her.

it's not higher, it's becasue I start to see from her point of view she's lonely, she needs a hug.

 

I think boundaries privide a constructive framework for eigher individuals or society to work out ideas or be productive.  once you start crossig , tsilly things start to come in, like emotions.  so they're there to thave the productive culture, to understand what you can and can't do.  it's important for individuals ot have privacy to innovate.  like tesla, it's a private company.  and then NJ was like, …

you guys were talking about faimly at home.  you need borders to be constructive, when your mom stopped that, everytying was okay, right?   

when fear is factored in, and privacy is required to keep innovating, I think that's silly.   what's a good example?   where fear stops people from coming in

in the tech world so many..

back to the family thing…they said, you're learning so much, an dnow you want to fly away from home.  their fear is preventing you from expanding your horisons.  that's people who don't understand what new tech does.  they want to crush it because they don't understand it and don't want to see it.

fear of the unknown, you mean.

fear of china coming in! talk about it, don't just dismiss it.

 

so I think boundary has both positive and negative sides, if you use the boundary very well, then you can get a proper protection from it.  but if you use it too much, then maybe it become a barrier for yourself.  also Im' thinkingabout building boundaires is a kindo f instinct.  if you're facing unkown, someties you can't explain it, you will defend a fence automatically.  maybe it's a biological thing.

we're more than our biology though!

yeah, just hukman being.  like my boyriena always says, soemtiems you dont' know why but your instinct pushes you to do it.

 

so in counselling, they often say boundaries is the, that all the problems that we hear about soeical issues is all about boundaires, it's about where you end and onther person begins.  it reminds me of, the reason why I wanted to struess, was, people have two needs.  they happen at different intensities at different times.  we all need connection.  we also need space and time for ourselves at well.  that's what's constantly being negotiated in intimate relations and society etc.  when ou talk about healthy and limiting walls, I was thinking, why do i…I am a strong advocate of boundaries, whether they are healthy or limitign.  the difference is, boundaries are defensive.   they're there to tell you to please respect it.  I think there's an emotion behind, we feel the emotion, like china is a force blockiing freedome, it feels invasive in a way?  that's a different thing.  I"m an advocate of boundaries.  they're telling people where the landmines are. its not just crossing other people's boundaries.  if each of us can know what our other pboundaries are, and express them in an effective way to different people, whatever it takes, society would function better.   the ideal utopian …. of relationshiop is like a symphony.   healthy relationshipos work when you respect your own and other person's, it's a good goal to be striving for.  also at the same time being compassionate to yourself and others. we are imperfect human beings, to get that formula right, it's hard to get right.

 

imagine that you are in a vast empty place, and you don't know where to go, then you create boundaries, then you have that comfort zone, and then ou can go out to explore, and you can go back an dbe safe, so it' sa kind of choice.  so taiwan is my base, then I can go to Paraguay, and then I could create a base there, and go somewhere else.  so you create different places.   what she said, we have two sides, you want people to know you, and also you want to hid yorself from people, so there's a contradiction.  so when we're talking about healhty boundaries, that's balance, you balance, people can know you, but you're also safe. 

safe in what sense?

like, they're not going to use things against you

so it's trust again

yes

so again it depends on the situation, the people, it's never shure.   the balance point is always shifting, so it's annoying.

 

another thing I learned form counselleing, we teach people how to relate to us, so boundaries, are writing them clearly. 

when it's not clear you make it clear, but sometimes you make it too clear, you have to make it a little blurry

if it's too clear, it makes people afraid of you.   

and that is inimical to relationshiop,

connection

like you step on the landmine, and bam, you're on the outside.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments (0)

You don't have permission to comment on this page.